Newb question about tinned vs. bulk tobacco

[NeverBend]

Hi Johnny,

Thanks for the idea, sounds like a great way to handle the bulks (and to add pressure) that I'm going to look into immediately. Any suggestions on sealers and bags?

Pete

[NeverBend]

Hi Coolbreeze,

Tins are vacuum sealed too but short of very expensive equipment you won't remove all oxygen with a household sealer nor a manufacturer sealed tin (that seal similarly to a mason jar). I've read that the changes in taste are made by aerobic bacteria but I don't know the source of that claim nor if it's true.

At intervals over the last 25 years I've been opening tins from the late 1980s (mostly one brand) and have found that the changes are consistent with tobaccos marrying rather than bacterial activity. If 'ageing' is the gradual (usually) subtle change in flavor profile then that too is consistent with marrying. Marrying is the acceptance of characteristics (flavor, aroma) from the other leaf in a mixture (or cigar).

Dry tobacco doesn't age well, (if at all), so I assume that moisture must be an agent of change. Virginia and Carolina do not easily flavor or take on the characteristics of other leaf. Both of these points support the idea that it is extended marrying that is actually what is transpiring. This explains why latakia loses potency and Virginia ages best (especially with extended ageing). If your hope is to achieve a smoother more nuanced version of the original mixture then understand how time in a vacuum sealed package affects what type of leaf because we shouldn't be warehousing latakia mixtures in the hopes that they will marry into something similar but superior to the original only to find that after 15 years it's just a muddled reminder of what it was.

A lack of oxygen would help to inhibit mold but most manufacturers use some form of anti-fungal. Long ago, Rattray Marlin Flake was notorious for molding (1980s and before) but it was still worth the effort .

Pete

[Cool Breeze]

If your hope is to achieve a smoother more nuanced version of the original mixture then understand how time in a vacuum sealed package affects what type of leaf because we shouldn't be warehousing latakia mixtures in the hopes that they will marry into something similar but superior to the original only to find that after 15 years it's just a muddled reminder of what it was.
Pete

Thanks Pete.
My main goal is to bring out the natural sweetness of the Virginias, which I've read aging does. It's all about natural sweet flavor for me and that's what I'm shooting for.

[johnnyflake]

Hi Johnny,

Thanks for the idea, sounds like a great way to handle the bulks (and to add pressure) that I'm going to look into immediately. Any suggestions on sealers and bags?

Pete

You will only need a basic food style vacuum sealing unit and they are the least expensive. The more expensive units come with all different kinds of bells & whistles that are not needed. I have found that the better, more expensive, pre-made, 5 or 7 mil bags in the 8.0oz size work the best.

[johnnyflake]

Hi Coolbreeze,

Tins are vacuum sealed too but short of very expensive equipment you won't remove all oxygen with a household sealer nor a manufacturer sealed tin (that seal similarly to a mason jar). I've read that the changes in taste are made by aerobic bacteria but I don't know the source of that claim nor if it's true.

At intervals over the last 25 years I've been opening tins from the late 1980s (mostly one brand) and have found that the changes are consistent with tobaccos marrying rather than bacterial activity. If 'ageing' is the gradual (usually) subtle change in flavor profile then that too is consistent with marrying. Marrying is the acceptance of characteristics (flavor, aroma) from the other leaf in a mixture (or cigar).

Dry tobacco doesn't age well, (if at all), so I assume that moisture must be an agent of change. Virginia and Carolina do not easily flavor or take on the characteristics of other leaf. Both of these points support the idea that it is extended marrying that is actually what is transpiring. This explains why latakia loses potency and Virginia ages best (especially with extended ageing). If your hope is to achieve a smoother more nuanced version of the original mixture then understand how time in a vacuum sealed package affects what type of leaf because we shouldn't be warehousing latakia mixtures in the hopes that they will marry into something similar but superior to the original only to find that after 15 years it's just a muddled reminder of what it was.

A lack of oxygen would help to inhibit mold but most manufacturers use some form of anti-fungal. Long ago, Rattray Marlin Flake was notorious for molding (1980s and before) but it was still worth the effort .

Pete

Yes, aging is basically another word for marrying, which is actually what is going on, in the so called aging process.

Your statement "Dry tobacco doesn't age well, (if at all)" is true, if we were actually dealing with dry tobaccos, they would not age and they would taste terrible, if we tried to smoke them. Truly dry tobacco would crumble as you touched it. I don't believe dry tobacco was mentioned. The idea is to seal, bulk tobacco, in a vacuum sealed environment, with as little oxygen remaining as possible. We are not sucking any moisture out of it. What remains is tobacco filled with natural oils (where the flavors come from) and whatever moisture is left and whatever amount of PG, is in the mix and a small amount of oxygen. The micro environment that is created, is ideal for the aging/marrying process.

[mooster]

I must admit, I'm not that trusting of plastic-I'll stick with glass.

[NeverBend]

Yes, aging is basically another word for marrying, which is actually what is going on, in the so called aging process.

Your statement "Dry tobacco doesn't age well, (if at all)" is true, if we were actually dealing with dry tobaccos, they would not age and they would taste terrible, if we tried to smoke them. Truly dry tobacco would crumble as you touched it. I don't believe dry tobacco was mentioned. The idea is to seal, bulk tobacco, in a vacuum sealed environment, with as little oxygen remaining as possible. We are not sucking any moisture out of it. What remains is tobacco filled with natural oils (where the flavors come from) and whatever moisture is left and whatever amount of PG, is in the mix and a small amount of oxygen. The micro environment that is created, is ideal for the aging/marrying process.

Hi Johnny,

First, thanks for the info about the sealer and bags. I can't locate anyone selling bags thicker than 3.5 mil, do you have a source that you can share for them?

Excellent post. I was going o expand on some points but rather than hijack this thread I'll start a new one.

Pete

[johnnyflake]

Hi Johnny,

First, thanks for the info about the sealer and bags. I can't locate anyone selling bags thicker than 3.5 mil, do you have a source that you can share for them?

Excellent post. I was going o expand on some points but rather than hijack this thread I'll start a new one.

Pete

I know, I have been looking again since I responded to this thread. The 3.5 are really find and will work very well. I had found 5.0 mil on Amazon about a year, year & a half ago and picked up a 50 count package. Now I cannot find them either. I will probably order the 3.5 mil shortly.

[mooster]

Yes, aging is basically another word for marrying, which is actually what is going on, in the so called aging process.

At the risk of pissing someone off again, I don't buy this. The reason canned food products have expiration dates is because the tastes change, not because the food goes bad. (Supposedly ten year old sardines are to die for; I'll never know-I can't stand them when they're new!) And I have a hard time believing that there's any "marrying" going on inside a can of Spam.

[johnnyflake]

at the risk of pissing someone off again, i don't buy this. The reason canned food products have expiration dates is because the tastes change, not because the food goes bad. (supposedly ten year old sardines are to die for; i'll never know-i can't stand them when they're new!) and i have a hard time believing that there's any "marrying" going on inside a can of spam.

omg - really!!!