Elephant & Castle

[c.ortiz108]

Bump for Chico @c.ortiz108

Thanks, Pete. Yes, that's the thread I saw. Really interesting bit of history, and although it's sad how it all turned out what an amazing experience to have been associated with one of the oldest blending houses in the UK, and to have worked with them making your blends. Very cool indeed. I only wish I'd been pipe smoking at the time and could have tried them. Even the tin art is great! I guess the inevitable question is, now that they are gone for good by the sounds of it, are there any current blends that are close to what you were doing? The descriptions sound right up my alley.

[c.ortiz108]

And by the way, if you ever do seriously get back into blending, you will have no shortage of guinea pigs around here! Have you thought about approaching another blender whose work you respect, who might be able to compensate for the changes in leaf over time?

[NeverBend]

Thanks, Pete. Yes, that's the thread I saw. Really interesting bit of history, and although it's sad how it all turned out what an amazing experience to have been associated with one of the oldest blending houses in the UK, and to have worked with them making your blends. Very cool indeed. I only wish I'd been pipe smoking at the time and could have tried them. Even the tin art is great! I guess the inevitable question is, now that they are gone for good by the sounds of it, are there any current blends that are close to what you were doing? The descriptions sound right up my alley.

I don't have a wide exposure to tobaccos currently on the market. Current Virginia, flakes especially, are closer to the quality of the 1980s more than Latakia mixtures. Part of this is the source leaf, especially the latakia that I find lacking. The most promising latakia mixture that I've tried is Gawith Hoggarth Balkan Mixture. I'm considering testing a sample of it sauced with coumarin.

And by the way, if you ever do seriously get back into blending, you will have no shortage of guinea pigs around here! Have you thought about approaching another blender whose work you respect, who might be able to compensate for the changes in leaf over time?

I don't know that the source leaf, from what I've seen and sampled, is there try and re-create them. If I could get close then I might consider trying to find an ally.

[OnePyroTec]

Bump for Chico @c.ortiz108

And a good bump it is! Cheers Pete!

Getting dangerously low on this fine tobacco myself.

[c.ortiz108]

Pete, I was just looking up Fribourg & Treyer blends after you mentioned them on the pipe deals thread (having never heard of them). They look interesting! Wondering if you'd care to comment on a review of Golden Mixture on TR, which says:

If you have been in mourning ever since the passing of Elephant & Castle, and their all-Virginia blend "The Roanoke" in particular, be of good cheer: F&T's Golden Mixture _is_ the Roanoke. It is the Ken McConnell blend that McConnell himself replicated for E&C at a time when the original Golden Mixture was not being made. Well, E&C is has been gone these 14 years since Ken McConnell's retirement (alas!), but Golden Mixture is back. Although it is no longer London-made, I am happy to report it has made the transition to Germany with all its qualities intact.

[NeverBend]

Pete, I was just looking up Fribourg & Treyer blends after you mentioned them on the pipe deals thread (having never heard of them). They look interesting! Wondering if you'd care to comment on a review of Golden Mixture on TR, which says:

If you have been in mourning ever since the passing of Elephant & Castle, and their all-Virginia blend "The Roanoke" in particular, be of good cheer: F&T's Golden Mixture _is_ the Roanoke. It is the Ken McConnell blend that McConnell himself replicated for E&C at a time when the original Golden Mixture was not being made. Well, E&C is has been gone these 14 years since Ken McConnell's retirement (alas!), but Golden Mixture is back. Although it is no longer London-made, I am happy to report it has made the transition to Germany with all its qualities intact.

Hi Chico,

I've read that review and it's intentions are good but it's incorrect. At the beginning of this thread I wrote...

The most difficult was the Golden Mixture reproduction that was originally a shag of mostly American sourced lemon virginia that was no longer available. By 1982, India was the main source of these types of tobacco but they were stronger and had more citrus and edge so we had to scrap the idea and make an entirely new blend. I worked extensively with Ken until we’d made a thicker cut (ribbon) that was fuller and more nuanced and that used a wide variety of matured leaf, especially Pekoe Virginia and this became The Roanoke.

The Roanoke ended up very different from Golden Mixture and they would never have been confused visually or in a blind taste test with each other. I suspect that the reviewer never had Golden Mixture from the 1960s (or before), when McConnell made it, and based his comments on some other incarnation of GM or comments that he read.

Golden Mixture needs to be smoked very slowly (shag cut) and if it's not made from the correct tobacco stocks, (Lemon Virginia and New Belt Carolina), as they were in the 1960s (and before), then you lose the nuance and bottom. It was very flat in our trials. We couldn't source these tobaccos in the 1980s because of a reduction in American farmland. The Roanoke is a ribbon cut (thicker) so it's not as difficult to smoke (optimally) but it too is best smoked slowly. It has a good portion of Pekoe Virginia (USA) that was available, for body and to smooth the Indian Lemon Virginia and then some Red Virginia, both tobaccos are not in Golden Mixture.

When Ken first suggested Indian Virginia I was horrified only to learn that it has many superior qualities to it's American counterpart, deeper and more distinct flavor, some edge and a lot of nuance and it behaves very well with many other types of leaf. India is the world's second largest grower of tobacco (after China) but much of their Virginia crop is now bought by huge cigarette manufacturers to add flavor to their blends. By the time that we were making The Roanoke (and E&C in general), most of the famous British Virginia cigarettes, like Senior Service, were made with Indian Virginia, something that would horrify purists like my friend Marc S. (not on this forum).

Golden Mixture was cut like angel hair and was a true MILD mixture but the original had some character and nuance. The Roanoke is a mile-MEDIUM mixture with, I feel, more flavor, less temperamental and more character and nuance. I am biased because The Roanoke was, at least through the 1980s, my all-time favorite mixture (The Stout my favorite latakia). I was in the fortunate position to be the guy making it so I made it the way that I liked it best.

[c.ortiz108]

Thanks for clarifying with such a detailed, interesting post @NeverBend . I didn't know that about India. Any current blends high in Indian tobaccos? I read on Puff once about an Indian-made cigar brand which was supposed to be pretty unique.

[NeverBend]

Thanks for clarifying with such a detailed, interesting post @NeverBend. I didn't know that about India. Any current blends high in Indian tobaccos? I read on Puff once about an Indian-made cigar brand which was supposed to be pretty unique.

Hi Chico,

Legally, I believe that tobacco manufacturers only need to include where the tobacco was processed, not the country of origin of the component leaf. The descriptions of components for Gawith Hoggarth (on PipeTobacco.Com) are sometimes inconsistent regarding component type but they're upfront about their sources with Virginia coming from places like Malawi, Zimbabwe and Brazil and it's good quality leaf. They claim that their Dark Flake Unscented (and Scented) uses an air-cured Indian leaf but it's not the same as a Lemon Virginia varietal.

I assume that Samuel Gawith probably sources similarly but I could be wrong. Many times the ingredient is a type, for example Red Virginia may be listed as a component but it's origin could be many places.

Pete