Dyed Maduro wrapper

[RogueBallBoy]

I'm curious about other's experience with this. I smoke a whole lot of black cigars, and it is rare when they turn my lips and fingers brown. The last couple Perdomo 10th anniversary maduros have though, which kind of annoys me. I grabbed one to burn tonight and preemptively wiped it down and the results startled me. Is this an obvious dye job? If so, is it normal and accepted? Is there another explanation?

[Tobias Lutz]

One of my favorite cigars- the CAO Mx2 has a dyed wrapper. I believe the Brazilia does as well. I don't worry about how the appearance is achieved in this case, only the flavor and burn quality. I can see where some guys come from, arguing against dyed leaf, but at the end of the day I just want to smoke stuff I enjoy.

[RogueBallBoy]

One of my favorite cigars- the CAO Mx2 has a dyed wrapper. I believe the Brazilia does as well. I don't worry about how the appearance is achieved in this case, only the flavor and burn quality. I can see where some guys come from, arguing against dyed leaf, but at the end of the day I just want to smoke stuff I enjoy.

Good point, the cigar is smoking and tasting nice. I guess I am less put off by the dye than I am by its transferring to my lips and fingers.

[FireRunner]

I wouldn't say many brands do this, but I know some do, where they will dye certain cigar lines and call it a "Maduro". It's a selling point. They want to have a cigar targeted to smokers who like smoking Maduro cigars. However, it's a false product.

The actual term "Maduro" when it comes to cigars is the process in which the wrapper is grown and processed. Just because a wrapper is "dark" doesn't mean it's a Maduro. A true Maduro wrapper has gone through the process. Sadly, certain company just dye the cigar and call it a Maduro. I'm not claiming that Perdomo does this, but I know certain brands who do.

[Branzig]

I read somewhere that maduro cigars have become so popular that some companies have started dying their wrappers to cash in on the craze.

Plus fermenting a maduro wrapper takes time. Why not just cut out that whole time thing and dye the sucker lol.

[Tobias Lutz]

I read somewhere that maduro cigars have become so popular that some companies have started dying their wrappers to cash in on the craze.

Plus fermenting a maduro wrapper takes time. Why not just cut out that whole time thing and dye the sucker lol.

I've read similar comments. The funny thing is that I have, on more than one occasion, confused a maduro Padron for a non-maduro because the color is not always uniformly dark when dealing with a maduro wrapper.

[RogueBallBoy]

I know DE treats some wrapper leaf with some kind of tobacco stem soup mix, but I've never got dyed lips from a nica rustica, MUWAT, or LP 9, and those are all pretty dark. I also recall reading a CA article where Nick Perdomo denied allegations of dying his wrappers, which makes this case with this particular batch of these peculiar. As I think about it, I kind of remember some color exchange from a 20th anniversary maduro as well. I'll wipe one of those tomorrow and see if it does the same thing to the paper towel.

[HabanoMan]

This was posted by Steve Saka elsewhere. Makes for an interesting and informative read IMO.

"Hi All,

Every couple of weeks or so I do a google search on Drew Estate, Liga
Privada, Acid, etc... and this thread was one of the new hits.


I am scoping it out and was cruising along fat and happy until I read
****'s contention that we manipulate the wrapper color on Liga
Privada, so I decided to reply - for better or worse.


First off, on this topic - yes some manufacturers have in the past and
still do manipulate their maduro leaf to achieve a darker, more even
color, but let me share with you some info:


Maduro is a color designation but it is also a reference to specific
varieties of air cured black tobaccos which require longer fermentation
at a high bulk temp. For example, most habano seed capas will seldom be
allowed to exceed 110 degrees in a bulk, while some CT Broadleaf will
require temps over a 125 degrees to just get it going. So while any
cigar can be maduro in color, true maduro cigars are ones wrapped with
CT Broadleaf, Penn Broadleaf, San Andreas Negra, Costa Rican Morron,
Brazilian Matafina, Aripriaca, etc. So it is important that just
because a cigar may be maduro in color, it does not mean it is actually
a cigar with Maduro wrapper.


Each variety of maduro capa has it own specific traits, for example CT
Broadleaf is a very large, elephant shaped leaf with an inherent
natural sweetness and an absolute pain in the ass to work with on the
floor, while Aripriaca is long and thin, very elastic and extremely
spicy - these are the typicals not the not always.


When you work with maduro capas on bench, they must be incredibly wet
to handle. In fact, cigars rolled with maduro capa must be done on a
metal tabla vs. the traditional wood one you see in almost all cigar
rolling photos. The also require special wicking (drying) right after
their manufacture in order to prevent flat faces and streaking before
being place in the traditonal escapartes. Another unique trait of
maduro cigars is they almost always shrink at least one ring size, ie.
you use 52 ring mold, but after 60+ days of aging the will almost
always be 51 (and sometimes 50) in gauge. Some makers use larger molds,
ie. a 54 to make 52s, while others like ourselves just list the
original mold size on our frontmarks.


As for modifying the color, there is a variety of ways of achieving this, naturally and artificially.


1) Naturally - by leaving the tobacco in the pilon/bulk longer and/or
allowing to ferment at higher temperatures before each turn of the bulk.


2) Naturally - by bale resting the tobacco for 6 months plus after
fermentation - this doesn't typically change the hue as much as it
evens the color out to the darkerest shade on the leave achieved in the
bulk.


3) Naturally - utilizing water in which tobacco stems have been allowed
to steep for sometimes weeks as the water added to the bulk for the
purposes of fermentation. This is a very time honored, Cuban practice
which not only results in a darker leaf, but also a spicier one.


4) Steaming - also called cooking or steeping. This is not achieved in
some giant vat like some of the posters have written, doing so would
destroy the leaf. Rather it is done in a small vessel typically 10
gallons in size to which steam is applied for approximately 60 minutes.
This technique is not only done to achieve a very dark color, it also
mellows the tobacco out making it much mellower and milder to smoke.


5) Painiting - this is done by typically achieved by wiping down the
cigar gently after it has been constructed with some sort of mixture.
This can be done wither Naturally or Artificially - some are recipes
that are all natural just using the oils from the stems or picadura or
the are artificial ones that contain coloring agents. Again there is a
long history of the natural methodology, the artificial stuff really
only came into practice within the premium industry during the boom.


6) Maduro-Matic - this is a name use to describe technique #5 but done
with a machine in which the wrapper is passed through roller s. Almost
always the coloring used it artificial.


There are other techniques, but the above covers the bulk of the methods employed.


Obviously the natural techniques are a-ok, so I believe the primary
concern as a consumer is the artificial ones. The question is how can
you tell the difference?


First off it is done really well, it is very hard for someone who
doesn't really intimately know tobaccos and how to manufacture cigars
to tell the difference.


Just having some dark stains come off the wrapper alone is -NOT- a fair
indicator, because all natural maduro wrappers will cause staining to
the skin with moisture due to their inherent oiliness. If you ever have
to opportunity to visit a cigar factory, just look at the hands of the
workers, unlike the manicure perfect hands shown in the pictures in
magazines and books, every worker's hands are stained, even those
working with BW color shade leaf. And those rolling maduro, their hands
are sometime near black! Everyone just stages those photos, we pick out
a pretty rollera with nice hands, she washes up, we clean up the bench,
etc. etc. just to make a pretty picture. Fwiw, it tough to even take
good pictures of people rolling cigars because they move too fast and
their hands are in the way, so 99% of the photos everyone see are
posed...


Also if you ever happen to be in any cigar factory, just because you
see someone wiping down a cigar with a sponge do not assume they are
dying the wrapper. Almost all factories regularly wipe their finished
cigars gently with water (except those with blonde wrappers which are
wipe dry with a soft cloth) to remove dust and/or any debris. And that
little water bowl's content become quite brown after just wiping a
couple of dozen sticks.


So it is not uncommon that from a really oil maduro for you to be able
to get staining while you smoke or if you were to wipe the cigar along
a sheet of paper.


However, there typically is a difference in the staining, a certain hue
and depth to it. I really cannot explain it in text, but someone with
true tobacco experience can tell.


One of the best ways for the consumer to tell if the wrapper has been artificially colored is the following:


Is the wrapper too perfect? The color is always even everywhere with no
color difference in the veins or texture, is the wrapper always extra
extra dark, does it seem to stain far more than other cigars. Now if
you think it is painted, well this is pretty easy to check.. peel the
wrapper off, look at its underside, almost all capas will be a
SIGNIFICANTLY different hue on the underside. Now don't confuse slight
difference because the oil always migrate to the exterior, so the
exterior will always be shinier - keep this in mind.


When it comes to steamed leaf the color will appear the same on both
sides, however it will always be nearly jet black and the actually
grain of the leaf will be matte. Sometimes if it is really over steamed
you will even notice a slight greyness when you reflect light across
its surface. But again, don't confuse the grey of a cigar with plume
vs. one that is due to steaming.


I hope this provides everyone with some info to assist in making your
own judgements, but at the same time I ask that people exercise
judgement when they start claiming such and such a cigar is
artificially darkened. Please understand that this is our livelihood
and false accusations not only can be parroted, but very damaging and
unjustly so.


At Drew Estate we only employ the natural #1 and #2 techniques
described above and I take issue with anyone stating differently and
please ask for others to refer them to my comments if you ever see this
accusation again - much thanks.


Hope this helps,


Steve Saka
President, Drew Estate, Inc"

[piperdown]

O

This was posted by Steve Saka elsewhere. Makes for an interesting and informative read IMO.

"Hi All,

Every couple of weeks or so I do a google search on Drew Estate, Liga
Privada, Acid, etc... and this thread was one of the new hits.


I am scoping it out and was cruising along fat and happy until I read
****'s contention that we manipulate the wrapper color on Liga
Privada, so I decided to reply - for better or worse.


First off, on this topic - yes some manufacturers have in the past and
still do manipulate their maduro leaf to achieve a darker, more even
color, but let me share with you some info:


Maduro is a color designation but it is also a reference to specific
varieties of air cured black tobaccos which require longer fermentation
at a high bulk temp. For example, most habano seed capas will seldom be
allowed to exceed 110 degrees in a bulk, while some CT Broadleaf will
require temps over a 125 degrees to just get it going. So while any
cigar can be maduro in color, true maduro cigars are ones wrapped with
CT Broadleaf, Penn Broadleaf, San Andreas Negra, Costa Rican Morron,
Brazilian Matafina, Aripriaca, etc. So it is important that just
because a cigar may be maduro in color, it does not mean it is actually
a cigar with Maduro wrapper.


Each variety of maduro capa has it own specific traits, for example CT
Broadleaf is a very large, elephant shaped leaf with an inherent
natural sweetness and an absolute pain in the ass to work with on the
floor, while Aripriaca is long and thin, very elastic and extremely
spicy - these are the typicals not the not always.


When you work with maduro capas on bench, they must be incredibly wet
to handle. In fact, cigars rolled with maduro capa must be done on a
metal tabla vs. the traditional wood one you see in almost all cigar
rolling photos. The also require special wicking (drying) right after
their manufacture in order to prevent flat faces and streaking before
being place in the traditonal escapartes. Another unique trait of
maduro cigars is they almost always shrink at least one ring size, ie.
you use 52 ring mold, but after 60+ days of aging the will almost
always be 51 (and sometimes 50) in gauge. Some makers use larger molds,
ie. a 54 to make 52s, while others like ourselves just list the
original mold size on our frontmarks.


As for modifying the color, there is a variety of ways of achieving this, naturally and artificially.


1) Naturally - by leaving the tobacco in the pilon/bulk longer and/or
allowing to ferment at higher temperatures before each turn of the bulk.


2) Naturally - by bale resting the tobacco for 6 months plus after
fermentation - this doesn't typically change the hue as much as it
evens the color out to the darkerest shade on the leave achieved in the
bulk.


3) Naturally - utilizing water in which tobacco stems have been allowed
to steep for sometimes weeks as the water added to the bulk for the
purposes of fermentation. This is a very time honored, Cuban practice
which not only results in a darker leaf, but also a spicier one.


4) Steaming - also called cooking or steeping. This is not achieved in
some giant vat like some of the posters have written, doing so would
destroy the leaf. Rather it is done in a small vessel typically 10
gallons in size to which steam is applied for approximately 60 minutes.
This technique is not only done to achieve a very dark color, it also
mellows the tobacco out making it much mellower and milder to smoke.


5) Painiting - this is done by typically achieved by wiping down the
cigar gently after it has been constructed with some sort of mixture.
This can be done wither Naturally or Artificially - some are recipes
that are all natural just using the oils from the stems or picadura or
the are artificial ones that contain coloring agents. Again there is a
long history of the natural methodology, the artificial stuff really
only came into practice within the premium industry during the boom.


6) Maduro-Matic - this is a name use to describe technique #5 but done
with a machine in which the wrapper is passed through roller s. Almost
always the coloring used it artificial.


There are other techniques, but the above covers the bulk of the methods employed.


Obviously the natural techniques are a-ok, so I believe the primary
concern as a consumer is the artificial ones. The question is how can
you tell the difference?


First off it is done really well, it is very hard for someone who
doesn't really intimately know tobaccos and how to manufacture cigars
to tell the difference.


Just having some dark stains come off the wrapper alone is -NOT- a fair
indicator, because all natural maduro wrappers will cause staining to
the skin with moisture due to their inherent oiliness. If you ever have
to opportunity to visit a cigar factory, just look at the hands of the
workers, unlike the manicure perfect hands shown in the pictures in
magazines and books, every worker's hands are stained, even those
working with BW color shade leaf. And those rolling maduro, their hands
are sometime near black! Everyone just stages those photos, we pick out
a pretty rollera with nice hands, she washes up, we clean up the bench,
etc. etc. just to make a pretty picture. Fwiw, it tough to even take
good pictures of people rolling cigars because they move too fast and
their hands are in the way, so 99% of the photos everyone see are
posed...


Also if you ever happen to be in any cigar factory, just because you
see someone wiping down a cigar with a sponge do not assume they are
dying the wrapper. Almost all factories regularly wipe their finished
cigars gently with water (except those with blonde wrappers which are
wipe dry with a soft cloth) to remove dust and/or any debris. And that
little water bowl's content become quite brown after just wiping a
couple of dozen sticks.


So it is not uncommon that from a really oil maduro for you to be able
to get staining while you smoke or if you were to wipe the cigar along
a sheet of paper.


However, there typically is a difference in the staining, a certain hue
and depth to it. I really cannot explain it in text, but someone with
true tobacco experience can tell.


One of the best ways for the consumer to tell if the wrapper has been artificially colored is the following:


Is the wrapper too perfect? The color is always even everywhere with no
color difference in the veins or texture, is the wrapper always extra
extra dark, does it seem to stain far more than other cigars. Now if
you think it is painted, well this is pretty easy to check.. peel the
wrapper off, look at its underside, almost all capas will be a
SIGNIFICANTLY different hue on the underside. Now don't confuse slight
difference because the oil always migrate to the exterior, so the
exterior will always be shinier - keep this in mind.


When it comes to steamed leaf the color will appear the same on both
sides, however it will always be nearly jet black and the actually
grain of the leaf will be matte. Sometimes if it is really over steamed
you will even notice a slight greyness when you reflect light across
its surface. But again, don't confuse the grey of a cigar with plume
vs. one that is due to steaming.


I hope this provides everyone with some info to assist in making your
own judgements, but at the same time I ask that people exercise
judgement when they start claiming such and such a cigar is
artificially darkened. Please understand that this is our livelihood
and false accusations not only can be parroted, but very damaging and
unjustly so.


At Drew Estate we only employ the natural #1 and #2 techniques
described above and I take issue with anyone stating differently and
please ask for others to refer them to my comments if you ever see this
accusation again - much thanks.


Hope this helps,


Steve Saka
President, Drew Estate, Inc"

I'd bump you for this but gotta spread the love around......

[Branzig]

At the end of the day, as others have stated, I don't care really as long as they taste good