CI "Fake" Cigars?

[Browns7213]

[MattyMatt]

I think it is safe to say that not only did we beat this horse to death but also dismembered the carcas and buried the pieces at the four corners of the earth.

[Billb1960]

Speaking of Star Wars

[wabashcr]

The post I quoted, and was responding to (with the one you quoted) we were talking about Porsche selling their name and rights to the 928 (a car, not a vacuum or a lighter) to a Vietnamese manufacturer to be sold under the same name, I said they would never do that. As far my analogy goes, extending it and taking it in a completely different irrelevant direction are two different things.

And FYI, the lighters, watches, etc... are Porsche Design, not Porsche AG but they do own it.

Of course Porsche wouldn't allow that. That's kinda my point, and also beside the point. The reason I brought it up is because it's a ridiculous scenario, but also more aligned with what I think CI is doing, than Porsche simply using some VW parts in their cars. Just trying to illustrate that in my mind, it's a practice that shouldn't be accepted.

Of course CI isn't the only one doing it, and it's something much more tolerable with $2 cigars than $80k cars. I really don't mean to come across as argumentative in tone to you or anyone else on this thread. It's an interesting discussion to me (and apparently not many others). I don't even necessarily disagree with you. Just see it a little differently.

[UncleFesterESQ]

Speaking of Star Wars

Favorite Tweet about that event: "The tears of one hundred million nerds will heal Harrison Ford"

[Skeat5353]

Every town needs a police chief...

[Emperor Zurg]

And hey, that's great, if you get ripped off so often that you're at a point in life where you don't mind when someone bends you over and sticks it in your butt one more time, then that's wonderful. I'm not at that point, hope I never am.

If this were a one-off from Cigars International, this thread wouldn't have expanded to 12 pages. However, I think that they, Thompson, the rest of the online cigar retailers, and perhaps the entire cigar industry are seen as such marketing hucksters that one more example just pisses people off even more. It's like a slow boil.

You're not getting ripped off. That's the point. You're getting exactly what you paid for; a sub $2 cigar.

I guess you'd feel a lot better letting the FDA define what is and what is not a 'premium cigar'. Is that what you want? Government regulation of cigars? I thought we had reached a consensus on that months ago...

[Sticky B]

That's my whole point. How much is 'non-premium' tobacco really worth? We don't know, because there is no such thing as 'non-premium' tobacco, there is no such thing as 'non-premium' cigars--according to the fraudulent marketing practices by these online retailers, there are only 'premium' cigars and 'premium' tobacco in the market. To an uninformed consumer, a 2-dollar shit missile is just as 'premium' as a Davidoff Nicaraguan, because that's how these sites market those cigars. The only difference is the price. One is an $18 'premium' cigar and the other, a $2 'premium' cigar.

That's how companies like CI, Thompson, J&R, and other large online retailers deceive people into buying garbage. They market each cigar, Davidoff Nicaraguan and 2-dollar shit rocket, under the same 'premium' umbrella. Even more pathetic is the fact that they are perfectly within their rights to do so and are not breaking any laws. Why? Because there is absolutely no Federal oversight protecting consumers from these fraudulent marketing practices. According to their marketing methods, whether I buy the $18 Davidoff or the $2 Dog Rocket, I am still buying a 'PREMIUM' cigar.

When I first started with cigars, I signed up at the old site and put a thread out there. Top Five Nic/Dom/Hon, or something like that. And the good people responded with over 200 posts!!! Thanks to all who participated!!! I am still buying and smoking cigars from that list. In fact, the kind people here helped me avoid all kinds of pitfalls out there for the new cigar smoker. And by 'pitfalls', I mean marketing traps like the kind CI and others practice. If it wasn't for the cigar lovers here, I would've been ordering garbage and smoking shite thinking the whole time it was 'premium.' And that is inherently wrong, in my humble and very confused opinion. It doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

Honestly, how much do you think that Blanco cigar is really worth? The price really only reflects the importation costs and that's it. I bet down in the Dominican, where it was manufactured, it's probably worth 5 cents, maybe even 10. So yes, I would say that cigar freshly rolled in the Dominican Republic probably costs no more that 25 cents. But that's just a guess. I don't know what's more disturbing: the value of the cigar itself, or the fact that it is being marketed here as a 'premium' cigar. They are both quite disturbing to me.

If that's your major gripe, that one word, then get over it. Instead you'll defend Brian for calling it a "fake" cigar? Just because he's the small guy?

And yes, if there are two kinds of cigars, there could be "machine-made" and "premium", which yes, covers a LOT of ground. Just like there can be a $2 premium and a $20 premium, the same goes with alcohol. Is not the 14X filtered PREMIUM VODKA sold in plastic jugs the same thing? Are you confused as to which will taste like toiletwater and give you a headache in the morning when shopping for these things?

Are you saying that without help from others, you'd STILL be smoking $2 dogrockets wondering why they weren't as "Premium" (in your mind, of course, some people LOVE em) as you expected- KNOWING that there are also much much more expensive cigars out there? And you would think, HEY-BOTH PREMIUM! and not know that there was any difference otherwise?

If that's the case, you might need the government to hold your hand, probably as you cross the street, as you may be a danger to yourself and/or others.

You're saying a cigar can be worth 5 cents and sold for that in America? You realize machine-made cigars sell for $0.50. How is one that takes human hands to create worth 1/5 of that? Have you no knowledge of what goes into logistics, or no respect for any of the work put into making a hand-made cigar, even if it has what you consider less-than-premium filler?

The point here, is that premium is subjective, so it can be used in advertising when some may disagree. They are not saying certain things that are flat outright lies, and that's why they can get away with it. Making accusations and saying someone is being dishonest without real proof, based only on your interpretation of a subjective word is not okay. You can express your opinion, but that's not what happened, and why the video was removed. It crossed the line that keeps coming up in these countless imaginary scenarios and comparisons that aren't what happened. The cigar wasn't even being called a "premium" at the time, which means this whole thing is really a big case of



Best part - finding company's use of loose word "premium" contentious, while feeling fully in the right throwing around words like "fraudulent"

You're not getting ripped off. That's the point. You're getting exactly what you paid for; a sub $2 cigar.

I guess you'd feel a lot better letting the FDA define what is and what is not a 'premium cigar'. Is that what you want? Government regulation of cigars? I thought we had reached a consensus on that months ago...

I believe that's where he might be going with it? I'd say any hand-rolled cigar can be considered "premium". It's not a well-defined word. Many companies call things premium that aren't exactly that. But it's subjective, so it's not technically a lie. Advertisers use this all the time.

I'm glad that this is what we're concerned about the government regulating rather than companies having to tell us if there is laboratory engineered DNA in the things we eat

[jpalamar]

I have nothing productive to say that hasn't been said already so I leave you with this....

[Skeat5353]

Hey Sean. I'm not looking to begin some long diatribe on the current marketing practices in the cigar industry. I think the market is fine the way it is. We get good cigars at affordable prices. I guess the 60-Minutes journalist in me (wannabe, lol) is looking to uncover every single form of corruption and fraud. Honestly, I like CI, regardless of their marketing practices. And, honestly, I don't put too much stock in Bryan Glynn's opinion about cigars. Like I said, I find it unbelievable that he has 10,000+ Youtube subscribers and a good reputation among industry insiders. Maybe this whole thing is over some personal grudge we don't even know about. Who knows?

I will concede that my use of the word 'fraudulent' is a bit heavy-handed and presumptuous on my part. What marketing execs do to sell their product is well within the laws and regulations of commerce. I do not want any more Federal oversight than the next guy. But I think there's something to be said for 'Lemon Laws.' Otherwise we'd still be buying crappy used cars for top-dollar. Now I don't know if 'Lemon Laws' in the used car industry can be applied to cigar industry marketing practices. Probably not. And it doesn't matter to me if such laws were in place, at this point, because now I know better and, like I said, I feel the industry is fine the way it is for my purposes. But keep in mind that for years sleezy car salesmen used the Caveat Emptor clause in sales to fleece and swindle consumers.

After reading Ropey's post, I kinda extrapolated (even perhaps exaggerated) a deeply unethical practice within the industry. But your point is very valid. Morally unethical practices are an entirely different thing than fraudulent. Ropey is correct in saying these marketing practices happen in a gray area of federal regulation. When you go to the gas station, there are always three grades of octane you can buy. It's still the same product, technically speaking. It's gasoline. Most luxury engines burn fuel more efficiently at higher octane levels, so therefore it's a federal requirement that each grade is indicated and priced accordingly. There's probably other reasons for those grades and I won't pretend to know them. I don't.

Why not have the same standards for tobacco? Because clearly there are different 'grades' of the tobacco used to make cigars, and they are priced accordingly. Any way, I think I've exhausted this thread. I am not trying to indict the whole marketing machine of the cigar industry. I think it's fine the way it is. Is there room for improvement? I think there is.

You are also correct in calling the word 'premium' subjective. 'Premium' covers a wide spectrum of cigars with varying qualities. But returning to my gasoline analogy, if all grades were 'premium,' then at the pump I'd be buying regular fuel under a premium classification. So in that instance, the word 'premium' is not subjective at all. It's comparable. But like I said, the subjective use of the word 'premium' allows cigar marketers a broad spectrum. You're right, though. By no means fraudulent. Morally unethical, maybe. I think that's a personal judgment that really depends on the moral lens through which you view the world in general. But you are right: 'Fraudulence' is too heavy a word and too heavy an accusation.

I leave this thread with one simple question. Heck, it might even be interesting to have a poll on this. Is the following cigar really 'Premium'?

http://www.cigarsinternational.com/s...-box/#p-150816

Yes or no?

I say, 'No.' If you took a blind test with the cigar above and, say, a Padron '26, it would be easy to determine which cigar had genuine, premium tobacco. In fact, if a 100 testers took the same blind test, I bet 100% of them would identify which cigar had better quality tobacco in it.