Are H&H 8 oz. tins okay for aging?

[Haebar]

Are these Hearth & Home 8 oz. tins good enough for long term aging or should I jar the tobacco in Mason jars? The ends of the tin look sturdy enough; I'm mainly concerned about the walls on the tube portion of the tin. It looks like it may be foil-coated cardboard. Anyone have experience with these?

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah50/haebar/Cigar%20Bum%20Photos%20001_zpswxittlcy.jpg

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah50/haebar/Cigar%20Bum%20Photos%20002_zps53x19fgw.jpg

[Lostmason]

Not really an expierenced tobacconist but from what others have said if they haven't been opened they should be fine.

[JimInks]

I recently opened year 2012 eight ounce tins of Anni Kake, Louisiana Red, Virginia Spice, and Rolando's Own. In all cases, the tobacco had retained its moisture with no rust. As long as they don't have silver bottoms (there were rust problems with those), I think they'll hold up for some time.

[Emperor Zurg]

As Jim said, the silver bottom tins were trouble but the newer ones with a goldish tint are supposed to be ok. However... I wouldn't trust any cardboard tube tin for the long term. I'd jar it for sure. The only ones I trust are the all metal cans like Frog Morton blends come in.

Just me 2 cents

[NeverBend]

I think you have answers regarding the materials that the tin is made from.

I have a 14-month, 8-oz tin of H&H AJs VaPer that appears to be doing fine. Every few months I flip the tin to prevent the bottom contents from ageing more rapidly.

I assume that Larry's Blend is packed like AJs VaPer so there's mostly settling pressure and that's similar to a mason jar of the same capacity (smaller jars would be less pressure unless you stuff it in hard). Storage pressure is important with Latakia. With light pressure, as in AJs and Larry's, you should be able to age it for several years, but not forever and, as a moderately full English, 3-5 years would be a good target for its use.

[AndyCAYP]

I have 2-3 year old 8oz tins of AnniKake and Blackhouse that are rolling along just fine.


Storage pressure is important with Latakia.

Care to school me in this statement?

[NeverBend]

I have 2-3 year old 8oz tins of AnniKake and Blackhouse that are rolling along just fine.
Care to school me in this statement?

Hi Andy,

I had almost completed this response when my Chromebook rebooted itself. :(

Ageing is synonymous with marrying but the latter describes the process, a combining of flavors. Aged tobacco (one hopes) will be smoother, more subtle and nuanced but there's a gradual loss of individual flavors. I'm sure that you know all this.

Generic tobacco types 'age' at different rates that might simply be said to be the giving or receiving of flavors. Burley does it readily, Virginia does not. Some moisture is necessary and pressure speeds up the process. Much, if not most, pipe tobacco spends some (if not all) of its life in a pressed form for this reason. By pressing a single varietal into a cake you increase the flavor consistency. Press a mixture into a cake to reduce the strength of individual flavors in the blend. The reason that Virginia (traditionally) are often made into flake form is because they better tolerate pressure and they won't become a muddled mess.

An example (sorry if I'm repeating myself).
I opened a number of tins of Elephant & Castle The Stout (full latakia mixture) over a several year period. It improve nicely within a year but was sublime with 3-5 years of age. By 8 years the latakia was losing distinction. Last year, a friend graciously opened a 1985 (29 years old) tin of The Stout and though very smooth it had combined into a monochromatic flavor with almost no latakia distinction. The Stout was packed under pressure.

About the same time I opened a tin of McClelland's #14 (medium latakia mixture) from 1998 (16 years old) that was packed without pressure. It had lost a little oomph but was still a very good smoke, probably would have been best with 10-12 years of age.

Regards,

Pete

[AndyCAYP]

Pete, I won't actually copy your post to save room, but I will include a quote to notify you...

From your original statement I read "pressure" and assumed "atmospheric", as in the self-contained and pressurized world inside a sealed tin, but your response indicates a slant towards the pressure at which a kake or flake was pressed, too.

Here's my issue with Latakia: while I agree that it softens and grows with age - anything does, that's why I have various bottles from St. Emilion tucked away in the basement with open dates of 2020 and beyond - to what degree does Lat lose its oomph and to what degree does the VA components sweetenening and becoming more assertive affect a blend and to what degree does an overall continued marrying of flavors homogenize a blend?

Not that I took issue with your post - I was actually hoping you had a case for atmospheric pressure because goofing around with that in regards to aging my own tobacco would be neat - but I want to believe there's more than just a simple "Lats fall off a cliff with age" reasoning behind what we experience with our beloved cellars.

[NeverBend]

From your original statement I read "pressure" and assumed "atmospheric", as in the self-contained and pressurized world inside a sealed tin, but your response indicates a slant towards the pressure at which a kake or flake was pressed, too.

Here's my issue with Latakia: while I agree that it softens and grows with age - anything does, that's why I have various bottles from St. Emilion tucked away in the basement with open dates of 2020 and beyond - to what degree does Lat lose its oomph and to what degree does the VA components sweetenening and becoming more assertive affect a blend and to what degree does an overall continued marrying of flavors homogenize a blend?

Not that I took issue with your post - I was actually hoping you had a case for atmospheric pressure because goofing around with that in regards to aging my own tobacco would be neat - but I want to believe there's more than just a simple "Lats fall off a cliff with age" reasoning behind what we experience with our beloved cellars.

Hi Andy,

Tobacco ageing is a recent phenomenon and the idea that more age is always good is incorrect just as it is with wine. Red wines (for example) all change with age but not all beneficially, same with tobacco. In my experience the ability of a tobacco to continue ageing beneficially is related to the varietal ability to accept flavors. You wouldn't age a Syrah as long as your Bordeaux.

I didn't say that Latakia 'falls off a cliff', just that over time it loses flavor. It can age (beneficially) longer than Burley but not as long as Virginia. Remember that it's an Oriental leaf that's smoke cured so that the flavors aren't intrinsic to the tobacco.

Moisture, heat and pressure affect the ageing rate. Atmospheric pressure, I assume, will be similar in most cases but if one tin was packed with pressure and another not then the former will age more quickly. Flakes are just tobacco under greater pressure.

I've had several experiences of an old tin being opened (mine or friends), to oohs and aahs, but it was aged too long and didn't taste as good as expected. In private others agreed. I'd suggest to anyone cellaring tobacco to have a Best By date, (based on component leaf).

Virginia loses some acidity (like wine) sometimes relatively quickly (starting around a year). With more time the sugars in Virginia can come to the surface. You posted a picture of a flake with a lovely plume the other day. Less acid reduces the sharpness and the surface sugar (plume) seems sweeter but also deeper (but actually not either).

Regards,

Pete

[AndyCAYP]

Hi Andy,

Tobacco ageing is a recent phenomenon and the idea that more age is always good is incorrect just as it is with wine. Red wines (for example) all change with age but not all beneficially, same with tobacco. In my experience the ability of a tobacco to continue ageing beneficially is related to the varietal ability to accept flavors. You wouldn't age a Syrah as long as your Bordeaux.

I didn't say that Latakia 'falls off a cliff', just that over time it loses flavor. It can age (beneficially) longer than Burley but not as long as Virginia. Remember that it's an Oriental leaf that's smoke cured so that the flavors aren't intrinsic to the tobacco.

Moisture, heat and pressure affect the ageing rate. Atmospheric pressure, I assume, will be similar in most cases but if one tin was packed with pressure and another not then the former will age more quickly. Flakes are just tobacco under greater pressure.

I've had several experiences of an old tin being opened (mine or friends), to oohs and aahs, but it was aged too long and didn't taste as good as expected. In private others agreed. I'd suggest to anyone cellaring tobacco to have a Best By date, (based on component leaf).

Virginia loses some acidity (like wine) sometimes relatively quickly (starting around a year). With more time the sugars in Virginia can come to the surface. You posted a picture of a flake with a lovely plume the other day. Less acid reduces the sharpness and the surface sugar (plume) seems sweeter but also deeper (but actually not either).

Regards,

Pete

Brevity is a fun word. I am always short for time so I usually speak in absolutes instead of taking my time and choosing my words carefully, as do many people when conversing online... Of course, we all know that brevity can mean "short of time" and it can also mean "concise speech".

Anyway.

Pete, I understand what you're saying about some wines and some tobaccos not aging for the better. I also didn't mean to point the "falling off a cliff" finger at you. It was a more a general statement of what I've read online when people talk about long-term Lat aging. I see a lot of "if a blend has any Lat in it and it's a day older than 10 years it will be terrible" when I know that to not be true. I've had a few "meh" moments before but I've also had a few outstanding bowls of Lat-based blends that were 20 years old. Storage conditions, the quality of the original components, the world inside that one tin, and the degree to which the other component tobaccos change with age all played in to both my good and bad experiences with older Lat blends.

Please don't take this as me disagreeing with you or being argumentative because that's not my purpose. And, I apologize to everyone for getting this thread semi-off-track.

Back on topic, I think H&H tins are perfectly fine for long naps and I've never read anything from Russ O. stating that his blends should be moved to a more permanent home if you weren't going to smoke them soon after purchase.