How To Fold and Stuff Flakes: Don't Bother (Yet)

[Mister Moo]

I am the Flake Whisperer.

Flake tobacco is fantastic. I hardly smoke anything else and it has been that way for years. I mean to say, I LOVE me some flake pipe tobacco. If you are stuck in the uber-simple ribbon- or shag rut you need to see what the cat daddy of pipe tobaccos has to over. But, I have to be honest here - there's a catch.

Seems like folks think you can just take a flake and roll it up (or fold it), jam it in a pipe and be flake-smoking in one minute. I my experience, this is pretty much myth. Here's the deal. There are more kinds of flakes than Carter has pills. There are wet ones, dry ones, thick ones, thin ones, floppy ones, crumbly ones, leathery ones, ultra-compressed ones and practically everything in between. Let me add that, unlike ribbon or shag, flakes will often warm up and expand slowly (unlike most ribbons that just go "POOF" when the match hits the rim).

Here's my take on fold and stuff. If you're just getting acquainted with flakes (square, rectangular, thick, thin or round), do exactly that - get acquainted with one type of flake. Maximize lighting and burning potential by busting or shredding the flake to pieces. This creates more surface area and promotes easier combustion. Gently moosh, don't mash, the mess evenly in a pipe and fire it up topsides good and hard. Like most tobacco it will quickly go out. Here's the trick when you tamp and relight - tamp ever so gently because what's in the bowl hasn't gotten near hot enough yet to expand. If you mash it down it will compact and, as it heats up, compact some more and plug up the pipe. No pipe tool pick will save you from this, by the way. Keep lighting and keep tamping very gently until you find the sweet burning spot. Thereafter, you may find it's a perfect sweet smoke and you'll stick with mooshing a rubbed out mess in your pipe. Or you may gradually learn the burning and expansion characteristics have some leeway and you can improve step by step toward less shredding and more tamping.

Really leathery well compressed flakes (like SG Full Virginia Flake or 1792) can wear you out unless you rub them out or unless they are quite dry. How dry is dry on the Three-Point Moo Scale?

1. Really dry. Bend a flake in half and it snaps cleanly. This is not a bad thing for some flakes.
2. About right for most flakes. Bend a flake in half and about 50% of it fractures - half breaks and half holds together.
3. Wet enough to wear you out. Bend a flake in half and nothing breaks. In fact, you might be able to tie it in a knot.

Until you're experienced with a flake take the time to go partial bowl of something well rubbed out. Light it hard and tamp it like a butterfly kiss.

Fold and stuff for rookies? Sure. Try MacBaren's Navy Flake after it airs out for a few minutes.

A range of tasty, easy to manage gear for the new-to-flake?

1. MacBaren's Navy Flake (predominant burley - very nice)
2. Erinmore Flake (mildly aromatic - tasty as heck, known as the Juicy Fruit of pipe tobacco)
3. Samuel Gawith Navy Flake ( hint of latakia - very nice)
4. Dunhill Flakes (aka GAF - sweeet to grassy to piquant straight virginia)
5. MacBaren's Stockton (a cute little curly-cut flake, virginia and cavendish - rich but not too strong)

So many more but each needs a little patient exploration to find the limits. When you crack the code and expand your horizons (and flakes) I guarantee the effort will have been worthwhile.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4koitj1ydhjlqut/P1000389.JPG?dl=1

[Shemp Jizzle]

How dare you not add the Glorious OGS??? (Orlik Golden Sliced)

A must try Flake

[Emperor Zurg]

I've recently discovered the wonders of folded and stuffed flakes thanks to commonsenseman 's thread on the subject and freestoke 's supplementary comments (basically light the hell out of it). Now I find I like some tobaccos folded and stuffed and others rubbed out. I.E. I like 1792 folded and stuffed but Old Dark Fired is much better fully rubbed out IMO. Don't much care for Erinmore either way. Didn't care much for Glengarry folded and stuffed because I couldn't get it to burn but cube cut, it was sublime. I'll be watching this thread for more educational tidbits I can add to my flake technique arsenal.

[Mister Moo]

...(Orlik Golden Sliced)

A must try FlakeYes, a must try and not hard to smoke either. Thing with me and OGS is, before I get halfway through a tin it always gets boring. I used to mix the second half with varying percentages of Carter Hall or, more often, bulk McClelland 5100 red cake virginia (always a good blender) but finally decided to pursue other flake avenues.

While not my fave I 100% respect your pick of a great product and, particularly, good for new flakists. 100g tin. Better like it. Shoot - everyone does except me. :D

[Mister Moo]

I've recently discovered the wonders of folded and stuffed flakes thanks to commonsenseman 's thread on the subject...
What I forget lately is the stuff of legend. Yes, excellent post. He is two years down the road whereupon skills change dramatically; here above is purely for the rookie.

[NeverBend]

@Mistermoo,

Dan, excellent post.

Your point about the expansion of the tobacco, while smoking, should be highlighted. Anticipated the draw beyond the pack. I do smoke moist so I err on the side of loose. Long ago I put a lot of thought into packing flakes but by now I tend to be automatic. I never dry or cut the flakes so I adjust based on the moisture, component leaf, manufacturer and how it's cut but Dan's comments made me pause to reflect on the particulars.

I use whole or partially broken flakes at the bottom of the bowl to prevent particles from entering the stem. Light pressure and a draw check that should be easy with only a minimal of resistance. I'll drip in all the small pieces and press them with a similarly light touch and draw and I finish with more complete flakes with more pressure and some resistance in the draw. I smoke a lot of Gawith Hoggarth flakes (duh) that are long so I feed and press them into place and break off the unused portion for the next smoke. I never pack a flake past the rim. Larger pieces at the top of the bowl reduce the flying embers (hate them) and slow the burn but it will take a little more diligence to light. I use stick (or paper) matches because I can control the light better and they burn cooler than butane (helpful with a stubborn flake).
I'd add Peter Stokkebye Luxury Navy Flake as a good beginner flake.


Didn't care much for Glengarry folded and stuffed because I couldn't get it to burn but cube cut, it was sublime. I'll be watching this thread for more educational tidbits I can add to my flake technique arsenal.

Nothing wrong with cubing the flake, especially a thick and coarse one like Glengarry. If it was sublime, you did something right.

[Cool Breeze]

I haven't met many flakes I didn't like.

I prefer my Virginias and Vapers in flake form. Had some St. James Flake today.
I generally rub them out but there are a few I'll fold and stuff.

[mooster]

A lot of my favorites are flakes, but I never fold and stuff. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good idea...

[c.ortiz108]

Not to throw a monkey wrench in the works, but what about coins? I just got some Flake Medallions and they have that core of black cavendish. Not quite sure what to do with it..... rub out like flake? Are the different tobaccos in the coin supposed to be integrated while smoking, or left separate so you get some changes?

[NeverBend]

Not to throw a monkey wrench in the works, but what about coins? I just got some Flake Medallions and they have that core of black cavendish. Not quite sure what to do with it..... rub out like flake? Are the different tobaccos in the coin supposed to be integrated while smoking, or left separate so you get some changes?

Chico, treat the coins like round flakes and you can fully rub them out or not as works best for you.


A lot of my favorites are flakes, but I never fold and stuff. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good idea...

Mark, to each his own. I smoke broken pieces at the end of the tin and like it less, burns faster, with more edge and less nuance.

When it comes to any pressed tobacco, whatever way you pack that smokes best is a good method but my preference is to break it out as little as possible.

[MrMotoyoshi]

Not to throw a monkey wrench in the works, but what about coins? I just got some Flake Medallions and they have that core of black cavendish. Not quite sure what to do with it..... rub out like flake? Are the different tobaccos in the coin supposed to be integrated while smoking, or left separate so you get some changes?

For the smaller coins like Dark Twist Roll Cake and Three Nuns, I like to just lather them on top of one of another and they usually fit nicely in a 3/4 inch bore or more. Escudo and Luxury Bullseye Flake I just fold them in half and maybe tear off an outer ring to leave on the top as kindling.

With both sizes you can do the ole lead ball approach and just roll them up and stuff em in musket style.

[Madbricky]

Peter Stokkebye Luxury Bullseye flake is my staple. Made by Orlik from very thin sheets of their VaPer blend and then a core of sweet black cavendish inserted.
I've tried a dozen ways and for me the best complexity and efficiency in burning comes from dried coins crumbled. The pieces are lightly stuffed in 3-4 lifts. Once the hot light is complete they tamp very easily with a light touch. A 24oz box at $45 earns it high marks as a good investment.

[mooster]

Mark, to each his own. I smoke broken pieces at the end of the tin and like it less, burns faster, with more edge and less nuance.

When it comes to any pressed tobacco, whatever way you pack that smokes best is a good method but my preference is to break it out as little as possible.

Well, I'll plead "excessive hyperbole" on that one (is there any other kind?)-I have nothing against folding and stuffing even if I don't do it anymore (though if I opened a tin of ABF I would; that's the only way I've ever smoked it.) My personal preference is what I would call "partially rubbed out". My favorite tobacco, HOTW, is (in my opinion) too rubbed out; I wish it came as a flake so I could do it myself. I like chunks rather than ribbon or entire flakes.

[El Whedo]

I like chunks rather than ribbon or entire flakes.

That's why I like Homborger Veermaster so much. It's a broken flake.

[Madbricky]

Flake like HH Old Dark Fired (smoke cured burley) is not very flammable thanks to smoking. I like to cut the flake into 4 lengths and peel half of them into strands. In between cut peices go strands in three lifts. It's kind of like fuses between flake to keep the ember going without too many relights or tamping. I also like to load the pipe 2/3 up with some cut flake like PS Lux Twist or Navy and then top it off with a Tinder pile of shredded flake to start a healthy ember. Never did well with flat stacking or all vertical flake. Just too much work to keep burning without scorching the unburnt portion.

[Basment_Shaman]

For years I been useing a 3 inch wide Herb grinder.3488 It's like an Iron maiden for pipe weed has sharp teeth in two directions. It makes short work on SG & GH flakes. a little tougher with plugs I tend to cube cut those. I store my flakes in Kilner Jars, rather than opening up the jars every time. I will get 5 flakes out cut them with scissors about an inch an a quarter and put them in a tin.I do the same with plugs except they are cut 1/4 inch wide to fill a tin,Twists I just hack off about 3 - 2.5inch pieces to fill a tin. I have a few dozen I rotate through, The tins allow for some pre drying time so I don't have to wait an hour to fill a bowl. And lets my kilner jars age
I like the rate flakes ,twists and plug burn. When I smoke ribbon ,shag and other cuts I end up smoking more bowls.

[LandonColby]

For years I been useing a 3 inch wide Herb grinder.3488 It's like an Iron maiden for pipe weed has sharp teeth in two directions. It makes short work on SG & GH flakes. a little tougher with plugs I tend to cube cut those. I store my flakes in Kilner Jars, rather than opening up the jars every time. I will get 5 flakes out cut them with scissors about an inch an a quarter and put them in a tin.I do the same with plugs except they are cut 1/4 inch wide to fill a tin,Twists I just hack off about 3 - 2.5inch pieces to fill a tin. I have a few dozen I rotate through, The tins allow for some pre drying time so I don't have to wait an hour to fill a bowl. And lets my kilner jars age
I like the rate flakes ,twists and plug burn. When I smoke ribbon ,shag and other cuts I end up smoking more bowls.

Interesting...I'm familiar with the grinder but have never used it on pipe tobacco. Would it be too much to ask for a picture of a flake that has been processed? I'm curious as to how it holds up in one of those things.

[Basment_Shaman]

Interesting...I'm familiar with the grinder but have never used it on pipe tobacco. Would it be too much to ask for a picture of a flake that has been processed? I'm curious as to how it holds up in one of those things.
3494This is 3 inch and a quarter cuts of SG St James Flake. I will let this air for about 15 minutes. under the screen in this grinder is another compartment for catching keef for the pot head; For me these fine particles of tobacco become Snuff.

[LandonColby]

3494This is 3 inch and a quarter cuts of SG St James Flake. I will let this air for about 15 minutes. under the screen in this grinder is another compartment for catching keef for the pot head; For me these fine particles of tobacco become Snuff.

Very cool! Seems a bit too fine a texture for me, personally. How many twists did that get? Would just a few turns yield a longer/chunkier ribbon?

Also I'd love trying the snuff versions of my favorite pipe blends. An unconventional method, but useful to the open minded person!

[Basment_Shaman]

Very cool! Seems a bit too fine a texture for me, personally. How many twists did that get? Would just a few turns yield a longer/chunkier ribbon?

Also I'd love trying the snuff versions of my favorite pipe blends. An unconventional method, but useful to the open minded person!
Twist wouldn't make a difference and there are easier methods of grinding snuff. a ball mill gives the best results. I assure you the texture has little to do with how it burns I could had rub the flakes out and they would taste and burn at the same rate, But it would take me 5X longer to rub them.

[mooster]

I assure you the texture has little to do with how it burns...
The texture has everything to do with how it burns.

[Basment_Shaman]

The texture has everything to do with how it burns.
I only been smoking for 45 years,and remain open minded. Sure if you stuff a flake like Samuel Gawith in a bowl whole it will require many relights. but fully rubbed out or shredded in my herb grinder they burn and taste the same. I see your point on texture in comparison to different tobacco cuts like shag. ribbon, broken flake etc. But in this case I stand firm. Contempt prior to investigation (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjABahUKEwjmxqG0-OTGAhWGPD4KHdQYDgY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fanonpress.org%2Fbb%2Fcontempt.htm&ei=YmmqVeaNE4b5-AHUsbgw&usg=AFQjCNFQ1ANPhy13YLYIMQRZ8J2LHkiQtA&sig2=huLYsPhtOAaqS72al4JlVA).

[El Whedo]

Humm...

I haven't smoked a pipe for 45 years, but I do have a firm grasp of physics.

I not convinced of your claims, but do feel the need for an experiment.

I will set up an experiment when I get home if not too tired tonight, if not tonight I will do it tomorrow morning.

Something along the lines of two samples cut from the same St. James Flake weighed on a triple beam scale, then one rubbed out, and the other run through a herb grinder. I will smoke both (small) samples back to back (in the same small pipe)while using a stop watch to time each. I will take notes on burn rate, how hot it burns, tongue burn, flavor, etc.

Stand back! I'm gonna try Science!

[mooster]

Oops; ended up with two posts somehow.

[mooster]

I only been smoking for 45 years,and remain open minded. Sure if you stuff a flake like Samuel Gawith in a bowl whole it will require many relights. but fully rubbed out or shredded in my herb grinder they burn and taste the same. I see your point on texture in comparison to different tobacco cuts like shag. ribbon, broken flake etc. But in this case I stand firm. Contempt prior to investigation (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjABahUKEwjmxqG0-OTGAhWGPD4KHdQYDgY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fanonpress.org%2Fbb%2Fcontempt.htm&ei=YmmqVeaNE4b5-AHUsbgw&usg=AFQjCNFQ1ANPhy13YLYIMQRZ8J2LHkiQtA&sig2=huLYsPhtOAaqS72al4JlVA).

Okay, let me get this straight: you agree that the different cuts cause differences in burning, but if tobacco is broken up in your magic grinder, these differences disappear?

[BryGuySC]

Humm...

I haven't smoked a pipe for 45 years, but I do have a firm grasp of physics.

I not convinced of your claims, but do feel the need for an experiment.

I will set up an experiment when I get home if not too tired tonight, if not tonight I will do it tomorrow morning.

Something along the lines of two samples cut from the same St. James Flake weighed on a triple beam scale, then one rubbed out, and the other run through a herb grinder. I will smoke both (small) samples back to back (in the same small pipe)while using a stop watch to time each. I will take notes on burn rate, how hot it burns, tongue burn, flavor, etc.

Stand back! I'm gonna try Science!

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1377919135_53727-YEAH-SCIENCE--Breaking-Bad-gif-2FYl.gif

[Emperor Zurg]

Okay, let me get this straight: you agree that the different cuts cause differences in burning, but if tobacco is broken up in your magic grinder, these differences disappear?

I think the only thing he meant to say was that the magical grinder produces an end result basically equivalent to rubbed out flake.
I don't think any veteran pipe smoker would make such a ridiculous assertion as 'different cuts all burn the same'

[El Whedo]

I cut identically sized triangles of St. James flake this morning, and got out the triple-beam to weigh them. My triple beam weighs to the gram, not the tenth of a gram like I thought.

Weighing flake tobacco to the gram isn't accurate enough by a order of magnitude for this experiment... but I got the problem solved! I called up a retired priest friend of mine down in Taos who used to be a chemistry teacher. He tells me he has a cabineted balance scale that is accurate to the hundredth of a gram! Yee-Haww!!! Two orders of magnitude will solve this problem.

The experiment is gonna be expanded to both me and Father Joe as smoking subjects, and he suggested we smoke the two small bowls a few different times throughout the day. He also suggested I bring a bottle of brandy.

The newly expanded experiment will go forward as soon as I have a day off... probably early next week when the managers get back. Until then, I'm working every day.

[Rocket Scientologist]

I cut identically sized triangles of St. James flake this morning, and got out the triple-beam to weigh them. My triple beam weighs to the gram, not the tenth of a gram like I thought.

Weighing flake tobacco to the gram isn't accurate enough by a order of magnitude for this experiment... but I got the problem solved! I called up a retired priest friend of mine down in Taos who used to be a chemistry teacher. He tells me he has a cabineted balance scale that is accurate to the hundredth of a gram! Yee-Haww!!! Two orders of magnitude will solve this problem.

The experiment is gonna be expanded to both me and Father Joe as smoking subjects, and he suggested we smoke the two small bowls a few different times throughout the day. He also suggested I bring a bottle of brandy.

The newly expanded experiment will go forward as soon as I have a day off... probably early next week when the managers get back. Until then, I'm working every day.

A retired priest/chemistry teacher who wants to participate in a smoking experiment...and drink brandy. He sounds AWESOME.

[El Whedo]

A retired priest/chemistry teacher who wants to participate in a smoking experiment...and drink brandy. He sounds AWESOME.

Yep. Father Joe is a great human being. The last time I hung out with him we downed a couple bottles of wine then sent a drum circle of hippies over to the lawn in front of the Catholic church to better hear the Taos Hum because, "several Ley lines cross there". Lol.

Anyhoo... I tried running a bit of fresh-from-the-jar St James flake through a Space Case grinder. It wadded up into little dense balls and was just about unsmokeable. I let some St James flake sit out for a good 20 minutes and ran it through the grinder and ended up with something much like I get when I rub out a flake by hand. After two hours of drying and being put through the grinder it was WAY too ground up and "fluffy". That bowl burned like gunpowder. So the same number of turns with different dryness of the same tobacco made for a WIDE difference in burning characteristics.

So I see more problems with the experiment. Namely, the dryness of the tobacco.

At this point I'm still willing to do an experiment, mostly because I wanna drink brandy with Father Joe, but my guess is that it will be WAY less effort to get a flake rubbed out by hand to my specs, rather than by a grinder, and I've already seen first hand that the grind did, in fact, change the burn.

[Mister Moo]

Yep. Father Joe is a great human being. The last time I hung out with him we downed a couple bottles of wine then sent a drum circle of hippies over to the lawn in front of the Catholic church to better hear the Taos Hum because, "several Ley lines cross there". Lol.

Anyhoo... I tried running a bit of fresh-from-the-jar St James flake through a Space Case grinder. It wadded up into little dense balls and was just about unsmokeable. I let some St James flake sit out for a good 20 minutes and ran it through the grinder and ended up with something much like I get when I rub out a flake by hand. After two hours of drying and being put through the grinder it was WAY too ground up and "fluffy". That bowl burned like gunpowder. So the same number of turns with different dryness of the same tobacco made for a WIDE difference in burning characteristics.

So I see more problems with the experiment. Namely, the dryness of the tobacco.

At this point I'm still willing to do an experiment, mostly because I wanna drink brandy with Father Joe, but my guess is that it will be WAY less effort to get a flake rubbed out by hand to my specs, rather than by a grinder, and I've already seen first hand that the grind did, in fact, change the burn.

Anything for science :D

[Lostmason]

Yesterday I had my first true success at folding the PS Lux Navy Flake.I had taken my Rolo pocket pie to my MIL's for dinner.The pipe has an oblong bowl,
so I tried just folding the flakes in half.I placed them in side by side rather than stacking,loose ends up.Three flakes made for a nice feel and smoked to a fine ash with a minimum of tamping.This pipe can be tricky to light due to the shape,but with a good charring light it then lit and smoked wonderfully.I know that with some of the other flakes this wont work,but for this combination it did.

[Bruck]

Yesterday I had my first true success at folding the PS Lux Navy Flake.I had taken my Rolo pocket pie to my MIL's for dinner.The pipe has an oblong bowl,
so I tried just folding the flakes in half.I placed them in side by side rather than stacking,loose ends up.Three flakes made for a nice feel and smoked to a fine ash with a minimum of tamping.This pipe can be tricky to light due to the shape,but with a good charring light it then lit and smoked wonderfully.I know that with some of the other flakes this wont work,but for this combination it did.

Getting flakes to burn right is a real art, but once you get it, it's a trip down mellow road :)

[JustTroItIn]

Yesterday I had my first true success at folding the PS Lux Navy Flake.I had taken my Rolo pocket pie to my MIL's for dinner.The pipe has an oblong bowl,
so I tried just folding the flakes in half.I placed them in side by side rather than stacking,loose ends up.Three flakes made for a nice feel and smoked to a fine ash with a minimum of tamping.This pipe can be tricky to light due to the shape,but with a good charring light it then lit and smoked wonderfully.I know that with some of the other flakes this wont work,but for this combination it did.

I find PS offerings burn very well fold and stuff method.