What we have to lose

[HIM]

Recently Ive noticed more individuals involved in the industry have been joining the board :D I won't mention any names as thats unnecessary. It also doesn't need to be pointed out but this is a very good thing for all of us and the forum especially. In a place most of us once called home there was, IMO, a lot of senseless bashing that strained the forums ability to establish these relationships and encourage their participation. Now I haven't really seen the issues here but I thought it was a good moment to remind us all of what we have to lose. Theres a right and a wrong way to say things and I think as adults we should all have the proper judgment in how we express ourselves. Situations are bound to arise but its how we handle them that defines us and this forum.

Again this isn't an issue Ive really seen here this is just a friendly reminder for us all. We've got a great thing going here lets keep it that way!!



Mods I doubt this is the right place for this but wasn't sure where to put it. Feel free to move it to where you see fit.

[jhedrick83]

Nailed it. Great post Cole. As I've said before differing opinions are what can make a forum great but it has to be respectful and open minded. Infact, if you have a problem with a retailer, especially a good one, if you calmly present your issue and are respectful, you will end up with a much more favorable outcome than if you go in guns blazing. I hope we see more and more retailers or even brand reps here. We can all learn from them. RG for you sir!

[Emperor Zurg]

Are you saying that acting like a bunch of hostile assholes will make retailers not want to be here?!?

**SHOCKED**

[/sarcasm]






Amazing how this doesn't seem to occur to people sometimes... then again, this IS the internet and ppl have a tendency to be more abrasive behind a screen than they EVER would be IRL.

[Tobias Lutz]

http://www.troll.me/images2/praise/amen-brotha-preach-it.jpg

I couldn't agree more! We have some great vendors that interact with us on many different levels, and I for one would love to keep it that way. Thanks, Cole!

[jhedrick83]

Are you saying that acting like a bunch of hostile assholes will make retailers not want to be here?!?

**SHOCKED**

[/sarcasm]






Amazing how this doesn't seem to occur to people sometimes... then again, this IS the internet and ppl have a tendency to be more abrasive behind a screen than they EVER would be IRL.

Yeah, Cole really should have asked us all to sit down before reading his post first.

[quo155]

Cole...well said!

I have noticed that the interaction with industry leaders are more prevalent here...and it is great to see!

[Lostmason]

I look forward to seeing posts from the vendors and reps,always nice to know that the "stores" are interested in us not just our dollars.

[Indyhp]

Good point.

[OB1theStogie]

Always enjoy your posts Cole. :)

[CeeGar]

Great post, Cole. In my humble opinion, if anyone here has a specific issue with a vendor (especially a vendor that's a member here), keep it to pm or email.

I don't mind seeing general grumblings, such as, " Hey, my last experience with that vendor left a bit to be desired. If anyone cares to hear my story, pm me."

I can't stand to see unadulterated bashing. What's worse are the threads that start shouting all kinds of butt-hurt before they have even contacted the vendor and given them a chance to make it right.

[Ropey]

Why again do we care if vendors and/or retailers post here? I'm confused.

I also chafe at censorship. Especially when it feels like I'm being censored so that other people can make money.

[Tobias Lutz]

Why again do we care if vendors and/or retailers post here? I'm confused.

I also chafe at censorship. Especially when it feels like I'm being censored so that other people can make money.

You might want to consider that it is about more than vendors making money off of you. It's about members of this forum having access to specials, promotions, and industry information that we would not otherwise be easily privy to. Not to mention, these folks are smokers/blenders/etc. themselves, and they're just as much a botl/sotl as anyone else who registers.

[Ropey]

You might want to consider that it is about more than vendors making money off of you. It's about members of this forum having access to specials, promotions, and industry information that we would not otherwise be easily privy to.
Guess I value the ability to say what I want more than freebies. To each his own I suppose.

[UncleFesterESQ]

Allow me to state for the record that I heartily endorse each and every vendor on this site!

Vendors: Please PM me for my address to send me free smokes and cigar accoutrements!

Thank you.
:stogie:

[dj1340]

Well lets see, no vendors who invest thousands of dollars in inventory so we can buy from them would amount to us
not having anyone to purchase from. Not to mention, as Tobias said , the discounts they give to members of any
forum. Kind of how business runs in my mind.

[Tobias Lutz]

Guess I value the ability to say what I want more than freebies. To each his own I suppose.

My point is simply that the person you you take your concerns to is the vendor that you have an issue with. We're a hobbyist forum, not the Better Business Bureau. We are not a platform for bashing retailers, and we are not to be leveraged by people trying to get what they want by posting one-sided attacks on the interwebs.

[jhedrick83]

Why again do we care if vendors and/or retailers post here? I'm confused.

I also chafe at censorship. Especially when it feels like I'm being censored so that other people can make money.

You may not care, but that doesn't me we as a group don't care. I'll elaborate and hopefully alleviate your confusion. Everyone is here for a different reason. Some of us like the comradare, come of us like to talk cigars, some of us like to find deals, some of us like to share our tobacco related projects, etc. we have FOGs, noobs and everything in between here. Some of us like social interaction and like to do business with people we know. There are a lot of advantages to having retailers and manufacturers here. I'll list just a few for you.

1. We can get to know where our money is going.
2. We can build relationships that can get us access to cigars that are not as easily available. Example: you can't order Opus X from FamousSmokeShop website, but you can pm them here (assuming you have that feature enabled) , see what is in stock, what the prices are and call to place an order. That's a bonus to me.
3. The vendors send us special deals and discounts. There are several cigar Bum centric Promo codes that we have here.
4. Noobs and FOGs alike can ask questions to their vendors directly and learn more about the hobby and make wiser purchases.
5. We have a common interest, the enjoyment of tobacco and protection of that enjoyment.
6. There are people out there like Steve Saka ssaka who have forgotten more than most of us know and will from time to time drop exceptional nuggets of knowledge on us.
7. When we have issues with products, it can be brought to their attention in a useful manner for both consumer and retailer. Improving the experience for us all.

There are plenty more reasons I, as well as the vast majority of the members here, could come up with.

Who is censoring you? Making a comment like that seems to me that you are expecting blowback from your comment, almost like you are looking to start trouble. Feel free to pm me if you want to discuss your concerns further.

[Bruck]

Amen, Bro!

Technically, we're all in the cigar industry :)

[HIM]

Why again do we care if vendors and/or retailers post here? I'm confused.

I also chafe at censorship. Especially when it feels like I'm being censored so that other people can make money.

I certainly understand your desire not to be censored and I support that. What I'm getting at is many times theres a way to convey things civilly rather than flaming. More often than not a well articulated grief carries a heavier hand and tends to have a better outcome for all parties involved. Im not saying don't address a problem, thats your right as a consumer. Just do it like a gentlemen not a teenage jackass if your going to bring it to the board or it makes the forum look bad.

[jhedrick83]

Not to mention cheaphumidors samplers.

http://www.cigarbum.com/forum/showthread.php?2370-Cigar-Bum-Samplers-Are-FINALLY-Here!

Excellent cigars at a great price for all levels and it helps support the site. Keeping the lights on isn't free.

[Emperor Zurg]

Not to mention cheaphumidors samplers.

http://www.cigarbum.com/forum/showthread.php?2370-Cigar-Bum-Samplers-Are-FINALLY-Here!

Excellent cigars at a great price for all levels and it helps support the site. Keeping the lights on isn't free.

They are excellent cigars. I'm mostly a pipe guy and I may even have to spring for one of those :stogie:

But can you imagine how inconsiderate it is for a few members, running their mouths, to drive off all the retailers and then expect someone (like Don) to continue to pick up the tab for site hosting and maintenance? ...and then remain on the site defending their actions after their vitriol has destroyed any chance the site may have had to be self sustaining? I for one, can't imagine the gall it takes to do such a thing. There's a way to handle a complaint and there's a way not to handle it. IMO the very first thing you ought to do is get over yourself and step back and see if what you're about to blow up about is REALLY that big a deal. The $2, short filler cigar thing? Not a big deal. A broken pigtail in a box of good cigars? Not a big deal. A $200 box of premiums full of beetle holes? Big deal and I have no doubt the retailer would make it right - however, I wouldn't expect them to replace every single cigar in your humidor just because you were dumb enough to toss them in there without checking them first. FTR, 99.5% of the vendor bashing posts I've seen over at the other place were the result of one or more of 3 things: 1) The customer doing something aggressive from the start (like a credit card charge-back) 2) the customer making unreasonable demands 3) the customer airing their dirty laundry on the forum before ever trying to make it right with the vendor

[Demuths1770]

the bashing always got old on there. im glade it has yet to happen on here and hope to see more people in the industry join our great new home

[Jaybird]

YOu guys know he was directly talking about me at Stogie Toys right? BAaaahhhhhaaaaaaaa


Well said Cole! I totally agree man. There are so many benefits to both sides of the coin when it comes to this or any forum. Us as customers get GREAT deals and discounts and well, us as vendors get a direct way to interact with the consumer and find out EXACTLY what it is that you want. It really is a WIN WIN and I am SO happy to be on both sides of the coin! Not that I sell cigars here but elsewhere I am a very active forum member and vendor for Brewing Equipment and man I have to tell you it is nice as a vendor to know what our customers want and need.
I like this place!

Cheers
Jay

[wabashcr]

I think it's great that vendors and other industry types want to interact here. It's a good way for them to get feedback, and it provides the members here with a wealth of knowledge and resources within the hobby. I like that this is a welcoming place for fostering those relationships.

That said, I think it's a mistake to stifle criticism just to pander to these businesses (which is kind of what I'm inferring from this thread). Most vendors that interact here are probably good, honorable businesses that would appreciate all feedback, good or bad. While I would never air a complaint here without trying to work it out with the vendor, and would never leverage this forum to take advantage of a supplier, I do think there can be value in discussing shortcomings publicly. Sometimes in business, even smaller businesses, the right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing. I think a respectful, yet critical dialog, can be beneficial, and even welcomed by most businesses.

There are also some businesses in this industry with some very unscrupulous business practices. I don't see any reason to dance around that. If that keeps them from participating on the forum, is that really a bad thing? Is it considered "bashing" to be honest and direct about that? I think this forum's integrity is worth a lot more than a 10% discount.

To me, the tone of this thread is very much pro-vendor. While I think it's great to establish good relationships with vendors, I don't think that should ever come at the expense of members (consumers) getting the full story. I think it's dangerous to get too cozy with suppliers, and accountability can gradually be lost. I don't see that becoming an issue for 95% of the vendors in this industry, and hopefully none of the ones that choose to participate here.

[jhedrick83]

I think it's great that vendors and other industry types want to interact here. It's a good way for them to get feedback, and it provides the members here with a wealth of knowledge and resources within the hobby. I like that this is a welcoming place for fostering those relationships.

That said, I think it's a mistake to stifle criticism just to pander to these businesses (which is kind of what I'm inferring from this thread). Most vendors that interact here are probably good, honorable businesses that would appreciate all feedback, good or bad. While I would never air a complaint here without trying to work it out with the vendor, and would never leverage this forum to take advantage of a supplier, I do think there can be value in discussing shortcomings publicly. Sometimes in business, even smaller businesses, the right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing. I think a respectful, yet critical dialog, can be beneficial, and even welcomed by most businesses.

There are also some businesses in this industry with some very unscrupulous business practices. I don't see any reason to dance around that. If that keeps them from participating on the forum, is that really a bad thing? Is it considered "bashing" to be honest and direct about that? I think this forum's integrity is worth a lot more than a 10% discount.

To me, the tone of this thread is very much pro-vendor. While I think it's great to establish good relationships with vendors, I don't think that should ever come at the expense of members (consumers) getting the full story. I think it's dangerous to get too cozy with suppliers, and accountability can gradually be lost. I don't see that becoming an issue for 95% of the vendors in this industry, and hopefully none of the ones that choose to participate here.

I don't feel like anyone's opinions have been stifled here. I fact I think quite a few contentious threads have been allowed to run unmolesed and unclosed. I'd say Cigar Bum mode and admins have been very tolerant of dissenting opinions. Posts haven't been edited, members have been banned over these things. There may have been warnings to keep things on topic and civil but I don't think that can be reasonably objected to. The thread has a pro-vendor tone due in large part because we have been trying to answer Ropey's question of why we care if vendors are here or not. Naturally the answer will be pro-vendor. I agree it is good to express concerns about vendors as long as it is done in a respectful manner. I also think it's important for people to realize that just because they had a bad experience doesn't mean that company X is crooked, bad for the industry, etc. and not immediately turn it into a personal crusade to ruin company X. If there are consistent, repeated problems with vendors then yeah, that's a big issue. I just think you get more bees with honey than vinegar. That's not everyone's opinion and that's fine but for the best interests of the community attitudes need to stay respectful and realistic. I don't think that's too much to ask.

[Herf N Turf]

Why again do we care if vendors and/or retailers post here? I'm confused.

I also chafe at censorship. Especially when it feels like I'm being censored so that other people can make money.

First of all, and I assume this is your main concern... even though you've consistently been an author of contentious posts, no one has yet censored you. All your posts are here and remain intact, so I really don't understand your accusation of censorship.

Secondly, we ALL benefit from industry communication. We are pledged to allow them the space and free license to post anything they want, in order to advance our knowledge and feed us information, as well as answer questions and concerns that we, as consumers, might have. If we offend them, or tell them we either "don't care", or worse, "don't want them", we cheat ourselves out of extremely valuable information about the products we care about most. Why this doesn't make sense to you, only you can discern.

Personally, I want to ENCOURAGE industry people to frequent this forum. I cannot imagine a better way to get real information about the products we consume, IN REAL TIME, than to have representatives from tobacco companies coming here and telling us what's going on. They also should find us to be a place where they can come in order to find out what we're consuming, what we like, what we're excited about; what's working and what's not.

I want this place to be a place where both sides can communicate freely and openly with one another. I want to make this a place where industry insiders are comfortable and encouraged to speak freely.

As such, we're not going to be in the business of shewing them off, or insulting them. We will treat them with the same respect that we require member-to-member. We're not going to abide vendor bashing, or smack-talk about a retailer. If one of our members has a LEGITIMATE gripe, or has otherwise been "ripped off" by someone, fine, okay. That's something that's helpful and can benefit the community. Our responsibility as members is make absolutely certain that the information we're dispensing is vetted and absolutely accurate; that the vendor has been given EVERY POSSIBLE opportunity to make things right, BEFORE posting anything negative in open forum.

It is for the benefit of US ALL that such posts not be allowed on Cigar Bum. Offending vendors; retailers, manufactures and posting things that might otherwise discourage their activity here is anathema to the best interest of our community.

[Schatzman]

I think it's great that vendors and other industry types want to interact here. It's a good way for them to get feedback, and it provides the members here with a wealth of knowledge and resources within the hobby. I like that this is a welcoming place for fostering those relationships.

That said, I think it's a mistake to stifle criticism just to pander to these businesses (which is kind of what I'm inferring from this thread). Most vendors that interact here are probably good, honorable businesses that would appreciate all feedback, good or bad. While I would never air a complaint here without trying to work it out with the vendor, and would never leverage this forum to take advantage of a supplier, I do think there can be value in discussing shortcomings publicly. Sometimes in business, even smaller businesses, the right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing. I think a respectful, yet critical dialog, can be beneficial, and even welcomed by most businesses.

There are also some businesses in this industry with some very unscrupulous business practices. I don't see any reason to dance around that. If that keeps them from participating on the forum, is that really a bad thing? Is it considered "bashing" to be honest and direct about that? I think this forum's integrity is worth a lot more than a 10% discount.

To me, the tone of this thread is very much pro-vendor. While I think it's great to establish good relationships with vendors, I don't think that should ever come at the expense of members (consumers) getting the full story. I think it's dangerous to get too cozy with suppliers, and accountability can gradually be lost. I don't see that becoming an issue for 95% of the vendors in this industry, and hopefully none of the ones that choose to participate here.

I tend to side with you on this. I work in this industry and I would want to know if the company I work for screwed up in someway. While ideally I want every customer to have a perfect experience every time, that isn't realistic. Odds are someone is going to have a bad experience. The real test from there is seeing how a company deals with a complaint.

I personally feel that this forum would be better suited by not doing advertising and relying on members to donate to support the site. I am on several other forums that work off donations. The members do a good job of policing people from bashing companies that don't deserve it.

[wabashcr]

I don't feel like anyone's opinions have been stifled here.

I generally agree, and hope it remains that way. I think that's an important part of the "for us, by us" mantra, and why this is a really great forum. I would be disappointed if that changed in an effort to appease vendors. I think the honest and forthright opinions and experiences of the members (consumers and vendors alike) are the true value of this forum, and far outweigh any potential perks or discounts. That's all I really wanted to convey.

I have no argument with any of the rest of your post.

[HIM]

Just to be clear it wasn't my intention that people shouldn't voice problems. They absolutely should. Just keep your big boy(or girl) pants on if you do. We don't need to burn bridges over simple things that can be worked out with a little patience and understanding.

[cheaphumidors]

Just to be clear it wasn't my intention that people shouldn't voice problems. They absolutely should. Just keep your big boy(or girl) pants on if you do. We don't need to burn bridges over simple things that can be worked out with a little patience and understanding.

I completely agree Cole. If my team is doing something wrong I definitely want to hear about it. However, I do think that most issues can and should be solved through private messages.

[UncleFesterESQ]

Kind of sad that there's 3 pages here basically asking people not to act like douchebags... What the hell is the internet doing to people?

As for advertisements on the site... much better than relying on members to continuously make donations to keep site up and running. I'm cheap. If I have to pay to play I'd rather not play. God forbid there's actually a year where the site creators actually make a bit of cash for putting up with all the bull shit.

[Browns7213]

YOu guys know he was directly talking about me at Stogie Toys right? BAaaahhhhhaaaaaaaa

Jay

I have a complaint about Stogie Toys. I ordered the purple one and they sent me the stainless steel color. Can I sue for to that?:stogie: Man I hope this doesn't get censored!

[Sigaar]

I see no problem with calling out vendors, GOOD and BAD, when that needs to be done. Of course, I don't own this forum, so not my rules. I've been on a regional gun forum for a few years that allows this, and frankly, think it's a good thing. No doubt, it's a more "rowdy" forum and you need a thick skin, which I'm okay with. There are many vendors on that forum, and sure, I'm pretty sure some of the crummy ones have left. Not sure that's a bad thing!! And if a member posts BS...believe me, you WILL be called out by the membership! I also think that's a good thing.

I guess I see calling out vendors as something that should be okay, and looked at on a case by case basis. Bottom line is if someone is having issues with Vendor XYZ, I'd like to hear about it and make my OWN decision as to whether I'll buy from them, or not. What is acceptable to you, may not be acceptable to me. I worked in the retail business for 15 years and everyone has varying degrees on what good service is...I may be fussier than you, and that's my right. I love the free market and people making their own INFORMED decisions, and the more knowledge you have the easier it is to do.

I'm also a fan of praising vendors when due. I did that not long ago about Holt's. Anyway...my two cents.

ETA: I've never had an issue with a cigar related vendor.:)

[MoreBeer]

I didn't read the entire thread although can add this.....

I develop software for the graphics and printing industry and also develop for Adobe as an independent contractor. Anyhow, I avoid posting to industry related forums like the plague. It has encouraged nothing but trouble and ridiculous bullshit for me. A developer who sells their own products can never win on industry forums, even when trying to be helpful....including when most likely 30% of the participants on the forum use one of the products and are more than satisfied with it. Maybe the cigar industry is different? I wouldn't know.

[wabashcr]

I completely agree Cole. If my team is doing something wrong I definitely want to hear about it. However, I do think that most issues can and should be solved through private messages.

I think we would all be disappointed if someone brought a problem here without giving you (or any vendor) a chance to make it right first.

[jhedrick83]

I generally agree, and hope it remains that way. I think that's an important part of the "for us, by us" mantra, and why this is a really great forum. I would be disappointed if that changed in an effort to appease vendors. I think the honest and forthright opinions and experiences of the members (consumers and vendors alike) are the true value of this forum, and far outweigh any potential perks or discounts.

I'm sure I speak for my fellow mods/admins what I say that is our goal to ensure it remains that way. I value the forum itself far more than a discount on items and if there are problem vendors that's one thing. I just think having vendor/manufacturer participation can provide the forum with a great knowledge base and good connections for the members. The best communities are well rounded ones IMO, which is why I like dissenting opinions.

[Nature]

I didn't read the entire thread although can add this.....

I develop software for the graphics and printing industry and also develop for Adobe as an independent contractor. Anyhow, I avoid posting to industry related forums like the plague. It has encouraged nothing but trouble and ridiculous bullshit for me. A developer who sells their own products can never win on industry forums, even when trying to be helpful....including when most likely 30% of the participants on the forum use one of the products and are more than satisfied with it. Maybe the cigar industry is different? I wouldn't know.

Maybe this forum is different? I think so.

[Jaybird]

I have a complaint about Stogie Toys. I ordered the purple one and they sent me the stainless steel color. Can I sue for to that?:stogie: Man I hope this doesn't get censored!

Baaahhhhaaaaaa David.... Ummmmmmm NO! Baaahhhhaaaaaaa


Cheers

Jay

[MoreBeer]

Maybe this forum is different? I think so.


I said: "Maybe the cigar industry is different? I wouldn't know."

I didn't say: "Maybe this forum is different?"

[fiddlegrin]

Hi Steve,
He knows that. (post 37)
He quoted your post and even made it bold; "Maybe the cigar industry is different?"

In his post he was just asking and answering his own question.

I'm sorry to hear that the software "industry forums" have been so unrewarding. That must be frustrating....

Best wishes, Dafiddla

[Dijit]

Amazing how this doesn't seem to occur to people sometimes... then again, this IS the internet and ppl have a tendency to be more abrasive behind a screen than they EVER would be IRL.

I am abrasive everywhere! Really just ask my wife.

Great thread though and thanks for starting it.

[CamoSutra]

Here is how I view the entire issue:

If a member here, or any cigar smoker, has a problem with a vendor the first place to voice that problem is with the vendor -- not an online forum. Explain what is wrong, give the vendor an opportunity to rectify the problem. Understand that sometimes things don't go perfectly, and politely requesting corrective action is far more likely to achieve the desired results than simply complaining. The only one who can fix a foul-up is the one who caused the foul-up -- that's either you or the vendor, and even if it's your fault most vendors will do all they can to keep you happy so that you continue to do business with them.

If a vendor blatantly and deliberately does something unethical, or refuses to correct a problem they (not you) caused, or causes the same problem repeatedly, then you owe it to the cigar community in general to describe the problem here and/or on other cigar-related forums. We need and want to know about cheats and thieves, but fortunately their kind are pretty rare in the cigar industry.

Most of the time, any problem or disagreement with a vendor is just a misunderstanding or the result of a legitimate fault in the online-ordering system. An example: Not too long ago I ordered some cigars from an online vendor whose Website had just been substantially updated. In my haste, I failed to notice that I had clicked on a delivery address that was at least three years out-of-date, and discovered my mistake only when I received an automated e-mail confirming the order; this was late on a Saturday evening, with no one either online or near a phone at the vendor's end. I immediately sent an e-mail requesting that the order be switched to my then-current address, but the vendor's e-mail was not functioning properly and the order went to the old address before anyone at the vendor's end got to read my e-mail. They made good, but it took a little longer than it normally would and in the interim I placed another order with a different vendor. While the problem was partly theirs because of their site's e-mail system not working properly, I certainly shared the blame because I wasn't paying attention when I placed the order. The worst thing that happened, when all was said and done, was that I temporarily ended up with more cigars than my humidors would hold. I still do business with that vendor, because they fixed a problem I caused in the first place, when they could have just as easily have said it wasn't their problem because they sent the order where I told them to.

I didn't mention this to anyone except the vendor, until just now. I did not accuse the vendor of not caring because they failed to read my e-mail and re-address the shipment before it left on the Brown Truck. I did not complain about their Website's e-mail system not working properly. I did not complain because their new Website defaulted to the old address -- which i should have noticed and deleted long ago. I had to wait an extra couple of days to receive that shipment, which wasn't really a hardship since I already had a good supply of cigars and I had ordered more which arrived before the mis-addressed shipment got to me.

Now, if this vendor had refused to work with me to correct the mistake, or had been rude to me, you can be sure I would have screamed bloody murder. But instead they went the "extra mile" to keep me happy.

Incidentally, they have since fixed the bug in their e-mail system, and thanked me for bringing it to their attention.